I have seen guys do very well long range with spectra and a very short flouro top shot. How does one get past the problem of casting the knot through the guides, which slows it down or if the top shot is so short it does not you would have to keep retying which would drive me nuts. Any suggestions on how to do it? Blackwater seems like the stuff due to stretch.
Thanks,

MrTuna,

There are a few ways to put on a short top shot and keep the knot from going thru the guides.

The first way is to use a knot to connect the two lines but use a top shot short enough to keep the knot out of the guides. Like if you are using a 6’ rod keep the top shot around 5’ to 6’ long and while casting the knot will be out past the tip top of the rod and there will be no problem with it in the guides. If you get nicks in your line they most likely will be close to the hook and then you cut out the damaged part of the line and retie. You keep this up until you need to replace the leader.

Second is to use the Sato crimp system. The sleeve in this system is very thin and will go thru guides with ease. The same thing applies when the line gets nicked, cut out the bad part and retie.

The third is to use a wind on leader. You use a loop to loop connection, a loop in the spectra and a piece of spectra on the top shot to make another loop. Then you use a cats paw to connect the two. This will go thru the guides the smoothest IMO and can be changed the fastest when needed. Having that you have bought or made some loop to loop top shots in advance.

I will not go into how to make loop to loop top shots here but with a little web research or time going out on a long range trip you will get all the info you need. On most long range trips you will have a day or most likely more to hone your craft. All the deck hands know how to do this and they want it done right, not for themselves but so you can catch that fish of a lifetime.

And please keep the following facts in mind in you decision to do this.

1 Spectra Floats keeping you bait from going as deep as possible.

2 Mono has aprox. 25% strech, Spectra has 4% strech which will result in more pulled hooks.

Just because short Fluoro directly to Spectra is successful does not mean it is optimal.

My .37 cents worth for your consideration.

Walt

Thanks for the help. I have been considering trying it but for one I have no confidence in casting spectra. Any idea how many yards a good caster can throw a dine? Maybe I will just put that much mono in my bait rig. I will have to practice the spectra casting at the lake to be ready for short long range season.

Chad

Chad,

A good bait caster (a very good one, no a really good one) will cast about 50 yards with a dean or surface iron. Some will say that cast further but put them on a football field and see how far they cast. I’m no slouch but I can’t cast 50 yards with a sardine even with some weight. So if you went with 100 yards of mono top shot you should be good and you will have some stretch in the line, also if you get into a tangle most likely it will be in the first 100 yards of line in the mono. A back lash in the line would kill me with spectra that’s why I like a longer top shots while casting

"A backlash would kill the Spectra"

Good reminder SoCal about the backlashing and Spectra. The following lesson got my attention.

Casting 3-4 oz irons in the local park with stright 30# Spectra. Got several nasty backlashes, picked them out and continued to practice. One especially violent snag was so bad the line snapped at the reel sending the iron into the wild blue yonder. I re-tie the iron and continue practicing getting several more backlashes. So I go home and decide to test some knots using the Spectra off the reel I was practicing with. Tying Bimini Twists I was previously getting 95-100 % knot strength, all of a sudden my knots start failing at 15 to 20 pounds with an ocassional 30 lb break. I could not figure out what the heck I was doing wrong. Remembering the one cast where the spectra broke, I strip about 80 yards of Spectra off the reel, trash it, and continue to test the Bimini. Immediate improvement. My results were back to the consistant
95-100% of the line strength. Have never had this problem with Mono.

The Spectras lack of elasticity promotes it cutting into itself. The backlash provides just such an enviroment. The Spectra breaking during the one cast gave me the clue to what was happening. The knot formed at the backlash snaps the line to a sudden halt severely weakening the Spectra at the point of knotting.

Consequently I have since used a 100 yd top of mono.

Have been quizzed on the "Spectra Floats" comment in my post above. If in doubt, take a 2" pc. and push it to the bottom of a glasses of water and watch what happens. And thats in fresh water, salt water is denser amplifying the buoyancy. If you are iterested in additional entertainment, take a chunk of Fluorocarbon and Mono and one at a time put them just under the surface of the same glass of water.

Casting Sardines: IMHO, if you can cast an unweighted Sardine over 30 yards with a 3/0 class reel and 30 lb mono, you are a casting guru. On a boat, with 6 foot seas, a 10 knot breeze, cabin and bait tank interference and 20 other mates complicates the matter. The local park is one thing the open sea is another.

Walt

As usual Walt you sum it up well. The only spectra I have been able to cast without backlash is 20lb Berkley Crystal on a Daiwa Luna. I am going to stick with the 75-100 yrds of mono. Plus I won't be the A@$ who cuts everyone off like on my last 5 day though they got bit a lot. Maybe it was because the cast over everyone on the corner and made it through the tangles by sawing everyone off. I hope you did not hit anyone upside the face with that broken off jig at the park Walt!

Chad

I must be missing something here.

My Top shots have no "KNOTS". They are all severed and have no problem going threw the guides or rollers.

I also don't use a loop to loop. I use a line splice.

Are you's guys using some kind of knot for your mono/spec. connection.

T-rex, I assume most of have a Bimini twist on the Spectra then use a 30-40 turn albright for the leader or top shot.

I a bit confused about all this casting you guys seem to be doing from a boat. Quite frankly I pitch more than I cast from the boat. IMO the whole point of being on a boat is not really having to cast. I can't imagine casting a Avet HX with 65LB Spectra a long distance on a boat. Those of you pulling that little trick get big Kuddos from me.

With respect to long distance casting especially those that hit 100-120 yards. These guys are using 10-13 foot rods, very well lubricated and magnetted reels. To chuck a 2-3oz weight 100 yards, you have to have a shock leaders, some folks like braid others mono, but 50-80lb braid seems to be the choice. Some folks like a the shorted shock possible (just enough for the shock leader to wrap around the spool 5-10 times once the rod is ready to get loaded (5-10 turns on the spool, the length of the rod plus about another 8-12 feet to generate enough momentum using a pendulum type cast). I got into this for some time with a bunch of guys from the North Florida and England. They have an annual meeting somewhere in Florida every year. They have seminars, casting contests and go fishing. These guys cast a sand flea 75 yards. Whenever I tried the sand flea would fly off. With respect to getting backlash, good thumb action is critical. Very little at the beginning and press hard when the lead hits the water (or grass if practicing)

Back to the original topic of the post. I don't like a lot of knots and I and not crazy about the idea of fishing with two different types of line (Spectra and a significant top shot 0f 50-150 yards). I have all my reel loaded with the max amount of Spectra then use a flourocarbon. It makes more sense for the type of fishing we do in Florida. Again, I assume that most you use a leader anyway. That's two connections that can fail, plus the fact that knots can reduce line strength. I have a real Seagaur fan, but I just purchased the Blackwater, but haven't used it yet.

Pier2Pier,
West coast style fishing is quit a bit different. I will use my last overnight albacore trip as an example to show how casting makes a big difference on a boat. The captain would meter a school of tuna, circle, toss live bait and fish would come up on the chum circle and boil. I cast a nice lively sardine off the corner as far back into the chum line as possible and would get an instant hookup and people just dropping their bait over missed out because the school would move on. I had 5 fish before most had one. Fortunately one school stayed at the boat to feed and everyone that dropped in got fish. More times than not I get all my tuna in the first 5-20min of the bait stop and a good cast makes the difference. (this is small tuna) Jigs are another story. Have to cast those on top of boils or yo yo straight up and down. The spectra backing has made the use of smaller reels with higher drag pressure possible. Can't follow a fish with a 100ft party boat (usually). Cow Tuna used to spool guys all the time. Spectra increases your yards on the reel significantly. Well that is just a bit of why we do the crazy stuff we do out here.
Chad

I toss off now and again if I think nobody watching , G'DAY mait !!! livelier when not hammerd at the initial clash of the surface , then if it doesn.t swimm try putting a weight above it and it will drop further down into the proper thermocline level where the breaders eat. Thats how we are masterin it down under here.